Difference between revisions of "Pr.123K (A-10bis)"

From War Thunder Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Visual (beta)Wikitext
(→‎Usage in battles)
m (U38088265 moved page Pr.123K (A-11) to Pr.123K (A-10bis): Renamed in 2.41)
 
(11 intermediate revisions by 6 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
 +
{{About
 +
| about = Soviet motor torpedo boat '''{{PAGENAME}}'''
 +
| and
 +
| usage = other versions
 +
| link-1 = Pr.123-bis
 +
| link-2 = Pr.123K
 +
}}
 
{{Specs-Card
 
{{Specs-Card
 
|code=ussr_pr_123k_hydrofoils
 
|code=ussr_pr_123k_hydrofoils
Line 18: Line 25:
 
{{Specs-Fleet-Mobility}}
 
{{Specs-Fleet-Mobility}}
 
<!-- ''Write about the ship's mobility. Evaluate its power and manoeuvrability, rudder rerouting speed, stopping speed at full tilt, with its maximum forward and reverse speed.'' -->
 
<!-- ''Write about the ship's mobility. Evaluate its power and manoeuvrability, rudder rerouting speed, stopping speed at full tilt, with its maximum forward and reverse speed.'' -->
−
The Pr 123K (A-11) is the fastest boat in the game - getting to 135/136kph in Arcade Battles. This makes it very useful for capturing zones that are some distance from the main battle area.
+
The Pr.123K (A-11) is one of the fastest boats in the game - reaching up to 135 km/h in arcade battles. This makes it very useful for capturing zones that are some distance from the main battle area.
  
−
The vessel loses a lot of speed when making anything more than minimal turns, like all hydrofoils. However it has very good acceleration, allowing sharp turns to be a normal part of your tactics.
+
The vessel loses a lot of speed when making anything more than minimal turns, like all hydrofoils. However, it has very good acceleration, allowing sharp turns to be a normal part of your tactics.
  
 
{{NavalMobility}}
 
{{NavalMobility}}
Line 32: Line 39:
 
{{Specs-Fleet-Primary}}
 
{{Specs-Fleet-Primary}}
 
<!-- ''Provide information about the characteristics of the primary armament. Evaluate their efficacy in battle based on their reload speed, ballistics and the capacity of their shells. Add a link to the main article about the weapon: <code><nowiki>{{main|Weapon name (calibre)}}</nowiki></code>. Broadly describe the ammunition available for the primary armament, and provide recommendations on how to use it and which ammunition to choose.'' -->
 
<!-- ''Provide information about the characteristics of the primary armament. Evaluate their efficacy in battle based on their reload speed, ballistics and the capacity of their shells. Add a link to the main article about the weapon: <code><nowiki>{{main|Weapon name (calibre)}}</nowiki></code>. Broadly describe the ammunition available for the primary armament, and provide recommendations on how to use it and which ammunition to choose.'' -->
−
{{main|KPVT (14.5 mm)}}
+
{{main|KPV (14.5 mm)}}
 +
 
 +
The Pr.123K has dual [[KPV (14.5 mm)|14.5 mm KPV]] machine guns mounted at the stern, giving a very wide angle of fire, excluding a relatively small angle either side of straight ahead.
 +
 
 +
However, the KPV is a very powerful gun, and with API ammunition it can do considerable internal and crew damage, destroying any other small boat in the game with 2-3 reloads, and even significantly reducing the crew of much larger vessels such as destroyers. Effective use of the guns requires good understanding of lead and aiming offsets for speed and angle - opponents will often not adequately compensate for your speed, while you can be causing damage at ranges up to 1.5 km.
  
−
The Pr. 123K has dual [[KPVT_(14.5_mm)|14.5 mm KPVT]] machine guns mounted at the stern, giving a very wide angle of fire excluding a relatively small angle either side of straight ahead..
+
* '''Universal:''' {{Annotation|API-T|Armour-piercing incendiary tracer}}{{-}}{{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}{{-}}{{Annotation|AP-I(c)|Armour-piercing incendiary (cermet core)}}{{-}}{{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}
 +
* '''IAI:''' {{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}{{-}}{{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}{{-}}{{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}{{-}}{{Annotation|API-T|Armour-piercing incendiary tracer}}
 +
* '''API-T:''' {{Annotation|API-T|Armour-piercing incendiary tracer}}{{-}}{{Annotation|AP-I(c)|Armour-piercing incendiary (cermet core)}}{{-}}{{Annotation|AP-I|Armour-piercing incendiary}}{{-}}{{Annotation|IAI|Immediate-action incendiary}}
  
−
However the KPV is a very powerful gun, and with API ammunition it can do considerable internal and crew damage, destroying any other small boat in the game with 2-3 reloads, and even significantly reducing the crew of much larger vessels such as destroyers. Effective use of the guns requires good understanding of lead and aiming offsets for speed and angle - opponents will often not adequately compensate for your speed, while you can be causing damage at ranges up to 1.5 km
+
{{:KPV (14.5 mm)/Ammunition|API-T, IAI, AP-I(c), AP-I}}
  
 
=== Additional armament ===
 
=== Additional armament ===
Line 43: Line 56:
 
{{main|45-36NU (450 mm)|BB-1 depth charge}}
 
{{main|45-36NU (450 mm)|BB-1 depth charge}}
  
−
The Pr. 123bis carries two 450 mm wet-heating 45-36NU torpedoes. They have a range of 3 km at a speed of 78 km/h or a range of 6 km at 73 km/h with the Torpedo Mode module installed. They are placed at the bow of the boat and fired out at the same speed the boat is already travelling at.
+
The Pr.123bis carries two 450 mm wet-heating 45-36NU torpedoes. They have a range of 3 km at a speed of 78 km/h or a range of 6 km at 73 km/h with the Torpedo Mode module installed. They are placed at the bow of the boat and fired out at the same speed the boat is already travelling at.
  
 
== Usage in battles ==
 
== Usage in battles ==
 
<!-- ''Describe the technique of using this ship, the characteristics of her use in a team and tips on strategy. Abstain from writing an entire guide – don't try to provide a single point of view, but give the reader food for thought. Talk about the most dangerous opponents for this vehicle and provide recommendations on fighting them. If necessary, note the specifics of playing with this vehicle in various modes (AB, RB, SB).'' -->
 
<!-- ''Describe the technique of using this ship, the characteristics of her use in a team and tips on strategy. Abstain from writing an entire guide – don't try to provide a single point of view, but give the reader food for thought. Talk about the most dangerous opponents for this vehicle and provide recommendations on fighting them. If necessary, note the specifics of playing with this vehicle in various modes (AB, RB, SB).'' -->
  
−
The Pr. 123K (A-11), as a premium variant of the Pr. 123K "Komsomolets", is relatively under-armed with two machine guns placed in a position that forces you to expose your side to shoot. However, this armament is still enough to do plenty of damage, which can be combined with the ship's excellent mobility to make use of ambush / hit-and-run tactics.
+
The Pr.123K (A-11), as a premium variant of the Pr.123K "Komsomolets", is relatively under-armed with two machine guns placed in a position that forces you to expose your side to shoot. However, this armament is still enough to do plenty of damage, which can be combined with the ship's excellent mobility to make use of ambush / hit-and-run tactics.
 +
 
 +
The Pr.123K does best in base-capturing abilities, as it can easily reach bases before most other boats. Thus, at the start of each game, you should rush straight for the bases. After the bases are captured, you can move into ambush tactics, as the Pr.123K has relatively weak survivability and will be shredded in any brawls. Thus, you have to play very carefully, and always stay at speed, or you will get picked off very quickly by gun boats with large guns. You should be the person to capture points for your team, and stay a nuisance for the enemies.
  
−
The Pr. 123K does best in base-capturing abilities as it can easily reach bases before most other boats. Thus, at the start of each game, you should rush straight for the bases. After the bases are captured, you can move into ambush tactics, as the Pr. 123K has relatively weak survivability and will be shredded in any brawls. Thus, you have to play very carefully, and always stay at speed, or you will get picked off very quickly by gun boats with large guns. You should be the person to capture points for your team, and stay a nuisance for the enemies.
+
Against smaller vessels such as MTBs, the two 14.5 mm machine guns are usually more than enough. However, note that these guns will bob considerably when travelling at high speeds, making aiming extremely difficult. Thus, ambush tactics are important - the boat who shoots first will almost always win the engagement. You should try to ambush other MTBs who are already distracted in order to maximize your ship's survivability. Against larger destroyers, the Pr.123 gets two large torpedoes which are typically enough to knock out anything up to the size of a destroyer - make use of these torpedoes to get rid of larger vessels such as early destroyers.
  
−
Against smaller vessels such as MTBs, the two 14.5 mm machine guns are usually more than enough. However, note that these guns will bob considerably when travelling at high speeds making aiming extremely difficult. Thus, ambush tactics are important - the boat who shoots first will almost always win the engagement. You should try to ambush other MTBs who are already distracted in order to maximise your ship's survivability. Against larger destroyers, the Pr. 123 gets two large torpedoes which are usually enough to one-shot anything up to the size of a destroyer - make use of these torpedoes to get rid of larger vessels such as early destroyers.
 
 
=== Pros and cons ===
 
=== Pros and cons ===
 
<!-- ''Summarise and briefly evaluate the vehicle in terms of its characteristics and combat effectiveness. Mark its pros and cons in the bulleted list. Try not to use more than 6 points for each of the characteristics. Avoid using categorical definitions such as "bad", "good" and the like - use substitutions with softer forms such as "inadequate" and "effective".'' -->
 
<!-- ''Summarise and briefly evaluate the vehicle in terms of its characteristics and combat effectiveness. Mark its pros and cons in the bulleted list. Try not to use more than 6 points for each of the characteristics. Avoid using categorical definitions such as "bad", "good" and the like - use substitutions with softer forms such as "inadequate" and "effective".'' -->
Line 68: Line 82:
 
* Extremely weak survivability even for a motor torpedo boat, with just seven crew members
 
* Extremely weak survivability even for a motor torpedo boat, with just seven crew members
 
** Hull is made of wood and is extremely prone to fires
 
** Hull is made of wood and is extremely prone to fires
−
* Only a single machine gun turret which cannot fire directly forward due to its positioning
+
* Only a single machine gun turret, which cannot fire directly forward due to its positioning
−
* Only two torpedoes compared two four on many comparable MTBs, which can only fire forward
+
* Only two torpedoes compared to four on many comparable MTBs, which can only fire forward
  
 
== History ==
 
== History ==
−
''Describe the history of the creation and combat usage of the ship in more detail than in the introduction. If the historical reference turns out to be too long, take it to a separate article, taking a link to the article about the ship and adding a block "/History" (example: <nowiki>https://wiki.warthunder.com/(Ship-name)/History</nowiki>) and add a link to it here using the <code>main</code> template. Be sure to reference text and sources by using <code><nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki></code>, as well as adding them at the end of the article with <code><nowiki><references /></nowiki></code>. This section may also include the ship's dev blog entry (if applicable) and the in-game encyclopedia description (under <code><nowiki>=== In-game description ===</nowiki></code>, also if applicable).''
+
<!-- Describe the history of the creation and combat usage of the ship in more detail than in the introduction. If the historical reference turns out to be too long, take it to a separate article, taking a link to the article about the ship and adding a block "/History" (example: https://wiki.warthunder.com/(Ship-name)/History) and add a link to it here using the main template. Be sure to reference text and sources by using <ref></ref>, as well as adding them at the end of the article with <references />. This section may also include the ship's dev blog entry (if applicable) and the in-game encyclopedia description (under === In-game description ===, also if applicable). -->
 +
'''Pr.123K (A-11)''' is a prototype variant of the Pr.123K, being the last series of Pr.123 motor torpedo boats built by the Soviet navy during and shortly after the Second World War. The ship differed from previous Pr.123 versions due to the removal of one 12.7 mm DShK machine gun turret, the installation of a heavier 14.5 mm machine gun turret, and the installation of two Identification Friend-or-Foe (IFF) and target search radars. The A-11 vessel was a unique Pr.123K prototype fitted with a double hydrofoil, allowing it to attain 56 knots (103 km/h) during testing.
 +
 
 +
The Pr.123K (A-11) was modified from the Pr.123K subclass of Pr.123 MTBs, and retained the bulk of the Pr.123K's equipment. The ship features an open bridge, similar to the Pr.123K, which housed the steering and control equipment. As well, the Pr.123K (A-11) was fitted with the "Zarnitsa" air-search radar and the "Fakel-M" IFF device, mounted on a dome behind the bridge. The Pr.123K (A-11) was equipped with the same engines as the previous Pr.123K, but was fitted with a dual hydrofoil. This setup enabled the vessel to reach exceptionally-high speeds: 56 knots (103 km/h) during testing.
 +
 
 +
The Pr.123K (A-11) was built by the Krasnoye Sormovo plant (chief designer RE Alekseev) in 1950. However, despite the higher speed offered by the hydrofoil, the ship was ultimately not accepted into service. Instead, the standard Pr.123K was mass-produced, and served in both domestic and international navies for several decades.
  
 
== Media ==
 
== Media ==
−
''Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.''
+
<!-- ''Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.'' -->
 +
 
 +
;Skins
 +
 
 +
* [https://live.warthunder.com/feed/camouflages/?vehicle=ussr_pr_123k_hydrofoils Skins and camouflages for the {{PAGENAME}} from live.warthunder.com.]
  
 
== See also ==
 
== See also ==
Line 87: Line 110:
  
 
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
 
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
−
* ''encyclopedia page on the ship;''
 
 
* ''other literature.''
 
* ''other literature.''
  
 +
{{ShipManufacturer Feodosiya Shipyard}}
 
{{USSR boats}}
 
{{USSR boats}}
 
{{USSR premium ships}}
 
{{USSR premium ships}}

Latest revision as of 17:36, 20 November 2024

Rank VI USSR | Premium | Golden Eagles
Su-25K Pack
This page is about the Soviet motor torpedo boat Pr.123K (A-10bis). For other versions, see Pr.123-bis and Pr.123K.
Pr.123K (A-10bis)
ussr_pr_123k_hydrofoils.png
GarageImage Pr.123K (A-10bis).jpg
Pr.123K (A-10bis)
USSR flag.png USSR
II Rank
Battle rating:
AB RB SB
2.3 2.3 2.3
Class:
PREMIUM
Purchase:1 000 Specs-Card-Eagle.png
Show in game

Description

The Pr.123K (A-10bis) is a premium rank II Soviet motor torpedo boat with a battle rating of 2.3 (AB/RB/SB). It was introduced in Update 1.83 "Masters of the Sea" as part of the fleet release into open beta test.

General info

Survivability and armour

Armourfront / side / back
Hull4 mm (steel)
Superstructure4 mm (steel)
Number of section3
Displacement23 t
Crew7 people

This boat has no armour, and relies upon small size and fast speed for survival. Turning away after dropping torpedoes and hiding behind smoke should be standard tactics.

Mobility

Speedforward / back
AB135 / 46 km/h
RB96 / 33 km/h

The Pr.123K (A-11) is one of the fastest boats in the game - reaching up to 135 km/h in arcade battles. This makes it very useful for capturing zones that are some distance from the main battle area.

The vessel loses a lot of speed when making anything more than minimal turns, like all hydrofoils. However, it has very good acceleration, allowing sharp turns to be a normal part of your tactics.

Mobility Characteristics
Game Mode Upgrade Status Maximum Speed (km/h) Turn Time (s) Turn Radius (m)
Forward Reverse
AB Stock ___ ___
Upgraded 135 46
RB/SB Stock ___ ___
Upgraded 96 33

Modifications and economy

Repair cost
AB314 Sl icon.png
RB623 Sl icon.png
Crew training2 300 Sl icon.png
Experts15 000 Sl icon.png
Aces125 Ge icon.png
Research Aces320 000 Rp icon.png
Reward for battleAB / RB / SB
Talisman.png 2 × 40 / 60 / 50 % Sl icon.png
Talisman.png 2 × 112 / 112 / 112 % Rp icon.png
Modifications
Seakeeping Unsinkability Firepower
Mods new ship hull.png
Dry-Docking
Mods new ship rudder.png
Rudder Replacement
Mods new ship screw.png
Propeller Replacement
Mods new ship engine.png
Engine Maintenance
Mods ship damage control crew.png
Damage Control Division
Mods ship fire control crew.png
Fire Division
Mods engine smoke screen system.png
Smokescreen
Mods new ship pumps.png
New Pumps
Mods tank ammo.png
14mm_ussr_KPVT_HEI_ammo_pack
Mods tank ammo.png
14mm_ussr_KPVT_API_ammo_pack
Mods new main caliber turrets.png
Primary Armament Targeting
Mods depth charge.png
Depth Charges
Mods ship art support.png
Artillery Support
Mods torpedo.png
Torpedo Mode

Armament

Primary armament

Turret2 x 14.5 mm KPV machine gun
Ammunition3000 rounds
Belt capacity50 rounds
Fire rate600 shots/min
Vertical guidance-20° / 70°
Main article: KPV (14.5 mm)

The Pr.123K has dual 14.5 mm KPV machine guns mounted at the stern, giving a very wide angle of fire, excluding a relatively small angle either side of straight ahead.

However, the KPV is a very powerful gun, and with API ammunition it can do considerable internal and crew damage, destroying any other small boat in the game with 2-3 reloads, and even significantly reducing the crew of much larger vessels such as destroyers. Effective use of the guns requires good understanding of lead and aiming offsets for speed and angle - opponents will often not adequately compensate for your speed, while you can be causing damage at ranges up to 1.5 km.

  • Universal: API-T · IAI · AP-I(c) · IAI
  • IAI: IAI · IAI · IAI · API-T
  • API-T: API-T · AP-I(c) · AP-I · IAI

Penetration statistics
Ammunition Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
10 m 100 m 500 m 1,000 m 1,500 m 2,000 m
API-T 38 35 25 17 11 7
IAI 8 8 7 5 4 4
AP-I(c) 40 37 27 19 13 9
AP-I 40 39 34 29 24 20
Shell details
Ammunition Velocity
(m/s) 		Projectile
mass (kg) 		Fuse delay
(m) 		Fuse sensitivity
(mm) 		Explosive mass
(TNT equivalent) (g) 		Ricochet
0% 50% 100%
API-T 1,000 0.06 - - - 47° 56° 65°
IAI 1,000 0.06 0 0.1 1.5 47° 56° 65°
AP-I(c) 1,000 0.06 - - - 47° 56° 65°
AP-I 1,000 0.06 - - - 47° 56° 65°

Additional armament

Setup 12 x 450 mm wet-heating 45-36NU torpedo
Setup 24 x BB-1 depth charge
Setup 32 x 450 mm wet-heating 45-36NU torpedo
4 x BB-1 depth charge
Main articles: 45-36NU (450 mm), BB-1 depth charge

The Pr.123bis carries two 450 mm wet-heating 45-36NU torpedoes. They have a range of 3 km at a speed of 78 km/h or a range of 6 km at 73 km/h with the Torpedo Mode module installed. They are placed at the bow of the boat and fired out at the same speed the boat is already travelling at.

Usage in battles

The Pr.123K (A-11), as a premium variant of the Pr.123K "Komsomolets", is relatively under-armed with two machine guns placed in a position that forces you to expose your side to shoot. However, this armament is still enough to do plenty of damage, which can be combined with the ship's excellent mobility to make use of ambush / hit-and-run tactics.

The Pr.123K does best in base-capturing abilities, as it can easily reach bases before most other boats. Thus, at the start of each game, you should rush straight for the bases. After the bases are captured, you can move into ambush tactics, as the Pr.123K has relatively weak survivability and will be shredded in any brawls. Thus, you have to play very carefully, and always stay at speed, or you will get picked off very quickly by gun boats with large guns. You should be the person to capture points for your team, and stay a nuisance for the enemies.

Against smaller vessels such as MTBs, the two 14.5 mm machine guns are usually more than enough. However, note that these guns will bob considerably when travelling at high speeds, making aiming extremely difficult. Thus, ambush tactics are important - the boat who shoots first will almost always win the engagement. You should try to ambush other MTBs who are already distracted in order to maximize your ship's survivability. Against larger destroyers, the Pr.123 gets two large torpedoes which are typically enough to knock out anything up to the size of a destroyer - make use of these torpedoes to get rid of larger vessels such as early destroyers.

Pros and cons

Pros:

  • Extremely mobile with a high maximum speed and good mobility
    • Very small silhouette which can be combined with the ship's great mobility to make it almost untouchable at longer ranges
  • Two 14.5 mm machine guns pack more punch than expected
  • Gets access to two torpedoes to destroy ships that the guns cannot take care of
    • Torpedoes fire forward at speed

Cons:

  • Extremely weak survivability even for a motor torpedo boat, with just seven crew members
    • Hull is made of wood and is extremely prone to fires
  • Only a single machine gun turret, which cannot fire directly forward due to its positioning
  • Only two torpedoes compared to four on many comparable MTBs, which can only fire forward

History

Pr.123K (A-11) is a prototype variant of the Pr.123K, being the last series of Pr.123 motor torpedo boats built by the Soviet navy during and shortly after the Second World War. The ship differed from previous Pr.123 versions due to the removal of one 12.7 mm DShK machine gun turret, the installation of a heavier 14.5 mm machine gun turret, and the installation of two Identification Friend-or-Foe (IFF) and target search radars. The A-11 vessel was a unique Pr.123K prototype fitted with a double hydrofoil, allowing it to attain 56 knots (103 km/h) during testing.

The Pr.123K (A-11) was modified from the Pr.123K subclass of Pr.123 MTBs, and retained the bulk of the Pr.123K's equipment. The ship features an open bridge, similar to the Pr.123K, which housed the steering and control equipment. As well, the Pr.123K (A-11) was fitted with the "Zarnitsa" air-search radar and the "Fakel-M" IFF device, mounted on a dome behind the bridge. The Pr.123K (A-11) was equipped with the same engines as the previous Pr.123K, but was fitted with a dual hydrofoil. This setup enabled the vessel to reach exceptionally-high speeds: 56 knots (103 km/h) during testing.

The Pr.123K (A-11) was built by the Krasnoye Sormovo plant (chief designer RE Alekseev) in 1950. However, despite the higher speed offered by the hydrofoil, the ship was ultimately not accepted into service. Instead, the standard Pr.123K was mass-produced, and served in both domestic and international navies for several decades.

Media

Skins

See also

Links to articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:

  • reference to the series of the ship;
  • links to approximate analogues of other nations and research trees.

External links

Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:

  • topic on the official game forum;
  • other literature.


Shipyard No. 831 “More” (Судостроительный Завод № 831 «Море»)
Fast Attack Crafts 
Project 123K  Pr.123K (A-10bis)*
Corvettes 
Project 11451  MPK Pr.11451
  *Modified with hydrofoil at Krasnoye Sormovo Shipyard, Gorky

USSR boats
Motor torpedo boats  D-3 · G-5 · G-5 (ShVAK) · Pr.123-bis · Pr.123K (A-10bis) · Pr.123K · Pr.183
Motor gun boats  TKA-412 · MO-4 · OD-200 · Pr.253L · Pr.183 BM-21 · Ya-5M
Motor torpedo gun boats  Pr. 206 · Pr.206-M · MPK Pr.12412 · MPK Pr.12412P · MPK Pr.11451
Gunboats  Groza
Armoured gun boats  BMO · MBK-161 early · MBK-161 late · MBK pr.186 · MBK pr.186 (MK 85) · Pr.1124 early · Pr.1124 late · Pr.1124 MLRS
  Pr.191 · Pr.191M · Pr.1204 · Pr.1204 late

USSR premium ships
Motor torpedo boats  G-5 (ShVAK) · Pr.123K (A-10bis)
Motor gun boats  TKA-412 · Pr.183 BM-21 · Ya-5M
Motor torpedo gun boats  MPK Pr.12412P
Armoured gun boats  MBK-161 early · MBK pr.186 (MK 85) · Pr.1124 MLRS · Pr.1204
Sub-chasers  MPK Pr.122bis
Frigates  Rosomacha
Destroyers  Kerch · Ryany · Leningrad · Stroyny · Smelyi · Neustrashimy · Blagorodnyy
Light cruisers  Murmansk · Kerch · Zheleznyakov
Battleships  Marat

Retrieved from "https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Pr.123K_(A-10bis)&oldid=195131"