Difference between revisions of "M256 (120 mm)"

From War Thunder Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Visual (beta)Wikitext
(→‎Pros and cons)
(→‎Available ammunition: M908)
 
(26 intermediate revisions by 8 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
 
== Description ==
 
== Description ==
−
''Write an introduction to the article in 2-3 small paragraphs. Briefly tell us about the history of the development and combat using the weaponry and also about its features. Compile a list of air, ground, or naval vehicles that feature this weapon system in the game.''
+
<!-- ''Write an introduction to the article in 2-3 small paragraphs. Briefly tell us about the history of the development and combat using the weaponry and also about its features. Compile a list of air, ground, or naval vehicles that feature this weapon system in the game.'' -->
 +
The '''120 mm M256''' is an American tank cannon used in its top rank vehicles. It is most famously used by the American M1 Abrams series of tanks since its installation in the [[M1A1 Abrams]] model, though it has saw usage in older American tanks like the [[M60 AMBT|M60]] main battle tank.
 +
 
 +
It is based off the [[Rh120 L/44 (120 mm)|Rheinmetall L/44 cannon]], though it is license-produced in America with a simplified design.
  
 
=== Vehicles equipped with this weapon ===
 
=== Vehicles equipped with this weapon ===
 
<!-- ''List out vehicles that are equipped with the weapon.'' -->
 
<!-- ''List out vehicles that are equipped with the weapon.'' -->
  
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m60_120s}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m60a3_slep}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m60a3_slep}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a1_abrams}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a1_abrams}}
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a1_aim_abrams}}
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a1_hc_usmc}}
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a1_hc_abrams}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a2_abrams}}
 
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a2_abrams}}
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a2_sep_abrams}}
 +
* {{Specs-Link|us_m1a2_sep2_abrams}}
  
 
== General info ==
 
== General info ==
Line 13: Line 22:
  
 
=== Available ammunition ===
 
=== Available ammunition ===
−
''Describe the shells that are available for the weapon and their features and purpose. If it concerns autocannons or machine guns, write about different ammo belts and what is inside (which types of shells).''
+
<!-- ''Describe the shells that are available for the weapon and their features and purpose. If it concerns autocannons or machine guns, write about different ammo belts and what is inside (which types of shells).'' -->
 +
 
 +
'''American ammunition'''
 +
 
 +
{{:{{PAGENAME}}/Ammunition|M830, M830A1, M829, M829A1, M829A2, M908}}
 +
 
 +
'''Export ammunition'''
 +
 
 +
{{:{{PAGENAME}}/Ammunition|KE-W}}
  
 
=== Comparison with analogues ===
 
=== Comparison with analogues ===
−
''Give a comparative description of cannons/machine guns that have firepower equal to this weapon.''
+
<!-- ''Give a comparative description of cannons/machine guns that have firepower equal to this weapon.'' -->
 +
 
 +
* [[File:Germany_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[Rh120 L/44 (120 mm)]] - The original basis of the M256, the Rh120 L/44 matches many aspects of the American gun down to the reload rate. However, the M256 is vastly superior in APFSDS penetration performance due to the M829A1 round.
 +
* [[File:Germany_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[Rh120 L/55 (120 mm)]] - An elongated version of the Rh120 L/44, the L/55 can exceed the M256 in APFSDS penetration and muzzle velocity values, but suffers in reload time.
 +
* [[File:USSR_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[2A46M-5 (125 mm)]] - This Soviet cannon is the only one in the tech tree able to come close to the M256 in APFSDS performance, but is still lacking and has a longer reload time than the M256. However, all of its chemical rounds are superior compared to the HEATFS the M256 can fire.
 +
* [[File:Britain_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[L30A1 (120 mm)]] - This British cannon comes close to the M256 in terms of APFSDS penetrations alongside a slightly faster reload rate. However the only alternative chemical weapon is HESH, which means the gun must choose to focus in the armour-piercing capabilities of the APFSDS rounds or in the explosive powers of the HESH to do its damage.
 +
* [[File:Japan_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[Type 90 L/44 (120 mm)]] - Another license-production version of the Rh120 L/44, this Japanese cannon is severely lacking compared to the M829A1 round fired by the M256. However, the gun's weapon platform in the Type 90 tanks have autoloaders to allow a way faster rate of fire compared to Rh120 and M256 tanks.
 +
* [[File:China_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[ZPT98 (125 mm)]] - Like the Soviet 2A46M-5, though this Chinese cannon has a much better APFSDS round available at the cost of a longer reload and no gun-launched ATGM available.
 +
* [[File:Italy_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[OTO Breda 120/44 (120 mm)]] - This Italian tank cannon fires a fast and hard-hitting APFSDS round out of a 120 mm L/44 cannon, despite having similar handling characteristics as the M256.
 +
* [[File:France_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[GIAT CN120-26 F1 (120 mm)]] - This French tank cannon has slightly lower APFSDS performance than the M829A1 round, but has a reload rate of 6 seconds between round. Otherwise, performance are quite similar in terms of HEATFS performance.
 +
* [[File:Sweden_flag.png|25px|link=]] [[Kan Strv 122 (120 mm)]] - See Rh120 L/44 entry due to near-identical performances.
  
 
== Usage in battles ==
 
== Usage in battles ==
Line 22: Line 49:
  
 
=== Pros and cons ===
 
=== Pros and cons ===
 +
<!-- ''Summarise and briefly evaluate the weaponry in terms of its characteristics and combat effectiveness. Mark pros and cons as a list.'' -->
 +
 
'''Pros:'''
 
'''Pros:'''
  
−
* M829, KE-W (on the M60 AMBT) and M829A1 (on the M1A2 Abrams) are amongst the most powerful shells in the game, with M829A1 having the third highest penetration after the German DM53 and the Italian CL3143
+
* M829, KE-W (on the M60 AMBT), M829A1 (on the M1A1 HC) and M829A2 (on the M1A2) are powerful shells
−
* The M256 on the M1A2 Abrams has access to the high velocity, proximity fuzed M830A1 HEAT-MP ('''''<u>H</u>'''''igh '''''<u>E</u>'''''xplosive '''''<u>A</u>'''''nti-'''''<u>T</u>'''''ank - '''''<u>M</u>'''''ulti-'''''<u>P</u>'''''urpose) shell, enabling the M1A2 to engage helicopters and low flying aircraft with devastating (and often hilarious) results. A direct hit isn't needed either due to the large amount of explosive filler and wide blast radius
+
* The M256 on the M1A2 Abrams has access to the high velocity, proximity-fused M830A1 {{Annotation|HEAT-MP|High-explosive anti-tank multi-purpose}} shell, enabling the M1A2 to engage helicopters and low flying aircraft
−
* Reload is comparable to other NATO MBT's - 7.8 seconds stock and 6 seconds with an aced crew
+
* Reload is comparable to other NATO MBTs - 7.8 seconds stock and 6 seconds with an aced crew
−
* Relatively wide selection of shells - 2 APFSDS shells on the M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams series (M829 and M829A1), 1 HEAT-FS shell (M830) and 1 HEAT-FS shell doubling as a HEAT-MP shell (M830A1), the M60 AMBT gets access to the powerful KE-W APFSDS shell and the M830 HEAT-FS shell
+
* Relatively wide selection of shells - M829 and M830 on the M1A1, M829, M829A1, M830 and M830A1 on the M1A1 HC, M829, M829A2, M830 and M830A1 on the M1A2 Abrams. The M60 AMBT gets access to the powerful KE-W APFSDS shell (which is a tungsten based M829A1 shell, without the depleted uranium tip) and the M830 HEATFS shell
−
* M830A1 is the fastest HEAT based shell in the game with a muzzle velocity of 1400 m/s
+
* M830A1 is a fast HEATFS shell with a muzzle velocity of 1,400 m/s
−
* Extremely high muzzle velocity on M829, KE-W and M829A1 makes longe range sniping a satisfying experience - M829 has the highest muzzle velocity out of the 3 APFSDS shells available
+
* Extremely high muzzle velocity on M829, KE-W, M829A1 and M829A2 makes longe range sniping a satisfying experience
 
* Great gun handling characteristics - the gun elevates towards +20 and depresses towards -10 very quickly
 
* Great gun handling characteristics - the gun elevates towards +20 and depresses towards -10 very quickly
 
* Very effective stabiliser - does not stop working at high speeds
 
* Very effective stabiliser - does not stop working at high speeds
−
 
−
*
 
  
 
'''Cons:'''
 
'''Cons:'''
  
 
* Poor stock grind - enemy tanks are very capable of withstanding M830 HEAT-FS
 
* Poor stock grind - enemy tanks are very capable of withstanding M830 HEAT-FS
−
* M830A1 is not effective against enemy MBT's - it only has 350mm of penetration
+
* M830A1 is not effective against enemy MBTs - it only has 350 mm of chemical-based penetration
 
* The M256 on the M1A1 Abrams and M60 AMBT do not get access to the M829A1 APFSDS shell and the M830A1 HEAT-MP shell
 
* The M256 on the M1A1 Abrams and M60 AMBT do not get access to the M829A1 APFSDS shell and the M830A1 HEAT-MP shell
−
* M830A1 needs to travel a certain distance to arm the fuze - unable to engage helicopters at close range, except for a direct hit
+
* M830A1 needs to travel a certain distance to arm the fuse - unable to engage helicopters at close range, except for a direct hit
−
* The reload isn't very impressive compared to contemporary tanks like the Leopard 2A5/6, the Strv 122, the Ariete and the Leclerc. The Type 90 and Challenger 2 beat it by a full second
+
* Average reload for a NATO tank. The reload time is equal to the Leopard 2A5/6, the Strv 122's, the Ariete's, and the Leclerc's. An aced Challenger 2 and Challenger 2 (2F) can beat you by a full second, the Type 90 and Type 90 (B) (due to their autoloader) by a full 2 or 3 seconds, depending on your crewskill
 
* M830A1 self-destructs at 4.5 kilometres - helicopters can engage the M1A2 way beyond that range
 
* M830A1 self-destructs at 4.5 kilometres - helicopters can engage the M1A2 way beyond that range
 +
* M830A1 requires a direct hit for maximum effectiveness - near hits result in little to no damage to the enemy target
  
−
*
+
== History ==
 +
<!-- ''Examine the history of the creation and combat usage of the weapon in more detail than in the introduction. If the historical reference turns out to be too long, take it to a separate article, taking a link to the article about the weapon and adding a block "/History" (example: <nowiki>https://wiki.warthunder.com/(Weapon-name)/History</nowiki>) and add a link to it here using the <code>main</code> template. Be sure to reference text and sources by using <code><nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki></code>, as well as adding them at the end of the article with <code><nowiki><references /></nowiki></code>.'' -->
 +
In 1972, as the replacement to the cancelled [[MBT-70]] and [[XM-803]] was beginning development by Chrysler and GM, a 120 mm smoothbore gun had been considered. However, the developing gun by West Germany was not expected to be produced in time to meet the scheduled production timeline, and so the [[M68 (105 mm)|105 mm M68]] was retained as the main armament for the upcoming design.<ref name="AbramsHunnicuttpg1">Hunnicutt 1990, p.163</ref> In 1976, during the decision on which company will receive the contract to produce the XM-1 tank, a separate decision was made for the tank to be able to accommodate a 120 mm gun in the future, either the British 120 mm rifled gun or the German smoothbore gun. On October 28th, the XM-1 designs were modified with this new requirement.<ref name="AbramsHunnicuttpg2">Hunnicutt 1990, p.190</ref> Chrysler eventually won the contract to produce the tanks, but they were armed with the [[M68A1 (105 mm)|105 mm M68A1]].
 +
[[File:M256 diagram.png|x50px|right|thumb|none|A diagram image of the M256 cannon.]]
  
−
== History ==
+
The German [[Rh120 L/44 (120 mm)|Rheinmetall 120 mm]] was eventually chosen to become the next tank armament for US tanks. Receiving a license to produce it, the Watervliet Arsenal produced the Rheinmetall cannon as the '''M256'''.<ref name="AbramsHunnicuttpg3">Hunnicutt 1990, p.224</ref> With the original Rheinmetall design considered overly complex and expensive, the M256 had been redesigned with fewer parts.<ref name="AbramsZalogapg1">Zaloga 1993, p.10</ref>
−
''Examine the history of the creation and combat usage of the weapon in more detail than in the introduction. If the historical reference turns out to be too long, take it to a separate article, taking a link to the article about the weapon and adding a block "/History" (example: <nowiki>https://wiki.warthunder.com/(Weapon-name)/History</nowiki>) and add a link to it here using the <code>main</code> template. Be sure to reference text and sources by using <code><nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki></code>, as well as adding them at the end of the article with <code><nowiki><references /></nowiki></code>.''
 
  
 
== Media ==
 
== Media ==
Line 53: Line 83:
  
 
== See also ==
 
== See also ==
−
''Links to the articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:''
+
<!-- ''Links to the articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:''
 +
* ''reference to the article about the variant of the cannon/machine gun;''
 +
* ''references to approximate analogues by other nations and research trees.'' -->
  
−
* ''reference to the article about the variant of the cannon/machine gun;''
+
* [[Rh120 L/44 (120 mm)]] - The cannon the M256 was based off of.
−
* ''references to approximate analogues by other nations and research trees.''
 
  
 
== External links ==
 
== External links ==
−
''Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:''
+
<!-- ''Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:''
 +
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
 +
* ''other literature.'' -->
  
−
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
+
* [https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/weapon/M256.html [inetres<nowiki>.com]</nowiki> Gary's Combat Vehicle Reference Guide - M256 120mm Smoothbore Gun]
−
* ''encyclopedia page on the weapon;''
+
 
−
* ''other literature.''
+
===References===
 +
 
 +
;Citations
 +
<references />
 +
 
 +
;Bibliography
 +
 
 +
* Hunnicutt, R.P. ''Abrams: A History of the American Main Battle Tank.'' Presidio Press, 1990
 +
* Zaloga, Steven. ''M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982-1992.'' Osprey Publishing Ltd., 1993
  
 
{{USA tank cannons}}
 
{{USA tank cannons}}
  
 
[[Category:Tank cannons]]
 
[[Category:Tank cannons]]

Latest revision as of 09:42, 26 June 2024

Description

The 120 mm M256 is an American tank cannon used in its top rank vehicles. It is most famously used by the American M1 Abrams series of tanks since its installation in the M1A1 Abrams model, though it has saw usage in older American tanks like the M60 main battle tank.

It is based off the Rheinmetall L/44 cannon, though it is license-produced in America with a simplified design.

Vehicles equipped with this weapon

General info

Tell us about the tactical and technical characteristics of the cannon or machine gun.

Available ammunition

American ammunition

Penetration statistics
Ammunition Type of
warhead 		Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
10 m 100 m 500 m 1,000 m 1,500 m 2,000 m
M830 HEATFS 480 480 480 480 480 480
M830A1 HEAT MP 350 350 350 350 350 350
M829 APFSDS 491 488 481 473 464 454
M829A1 APFSDS 598 596 589 580 570 560
M829A2 APFSDS 629 627 619 610 601 590
M908 HE-OR 300 300 300 300 300 300
Shell details
Ammunition Type of
warhead 		Velocity
(m/s) 		Projectile
mass (kg) 		Fuse delay
(m) 		Fuse sensitivity
(mm) 		Explosive mass
(TNT equivalent) (kg) 		Ricochet
0% 50% 100%
M830 HEATFS 1,140 13.1 0.05 0.1 2.36 65° 72° 77°
M829 APFSDS 1,670 4.27 - - - 78° 80° 81°
M829A1 APFSDS 1,575 4.89 - - - 78° 80° 81°
M829A2 APFSDS 1,680 4.92 - - - 78° 80° 81°
M908 HE-OR 1,410 11.4 0.4 5 1.99 65° 72° 77°
Proximity-fused shell details
Ammunition Type of
warhead 		Velocity
(m/s) 		Projectile
mass (kg) 		Fuse delay
(m) 		Fuse sensitivity
(mm) 		Arming
distance (m) 		Trigger
radius (m) 		Explosive mass
(TNT equivalent) (kg) 		Ricochet
0% 50% 100%
M830A1 HEAT MP 1,410 11.4 0.05 0.1 400 10 1.99 65° 72° 77°

Export ammunition

Penetration statistics
Ammunition Type of
warhead 		Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
10 m 100 m 500 m 1,000 m 1,500 m 2,000 m
KE-W APFSDS 583 579 569 556 542 528
Shell details
Ammunition Type of
warhead 		Velocity
(m/s) 		Projectile
mass (kg) 		Fuse delay
(m) 		Fuse sensitivity
(mm) 		Explosive mass
(TNT equivalent) (kg) 		Ricochet
0% 50% 100%
KE-W APFSDS 1,585 4 - - - 78° 80° 81°

Comparison with analogues

  • Germany flag.png Rh120 L/44 (120 mm) - The original basis of the M256, the Rh120 L/44 matches many aspects of the American gun down to the reload rate. However, the M256 is vastly superior in APFSDS penetration performance due to the M829A1 round.
  • Germany flag.png Rh120 L/55 (120 mm) - An elongated version of the Rh120 L/44, the L/55 can exceed the M256 in APFSDS penetration and muzzle velocity values, but suffers in reload time.
  • USSR flag.png 2A46M-5 (125 mm) - This Soviet cannon is the only one in the tech tree able to come close to the M256 in APFSDS performance, but is still lacking and has a longer reload time than the M256. However, all of its chemical rounds are superior compared to the HEATFS the M256 can fire.
  • Britain flag.png L30A1 (120 mm) - This British cannon comes close to the M256 in terms of APFSDS penetrations alongside a slightly faster reload rate. However the only alternative chemical weapon is HESH, which means the gun must choose to focus in the armour-piercing capabilities of the APFSDS rounds or in the explosive powers of the HESH to do its damage.
  • Japan flag.png Type 90 L/44 (120 mm) - Another license-production version of the Rh120 L/44, this Japanese cannon is severely lacking compared to the M829A1 round fired by the M256. However, the gun's weapon platform in the Type 90 tanks have autoloaders to allow a way faster rate of fire compared to Rh120 and M256 tanks.
  • China flag.png ZPT98 (125 mm) - Like the Soviet 2A46M-5, though this Chinese cannon has a much better APFSDS round available at the cost of a longer reload and no gun-launched ATGM available.
  • Italy flag.png OTO Breda 120/44 (120 mm) - This Italian tank cannon fires a fast and hard-hitting APFSDS round out of a 120 mm L/44 cannon, despite having similar handling characteristics as the M256.
  • France flag.png GIAT CN120-26 F1 (120 mm) - This French tank cannon has slightly lower APFSDS performance than the M829A1 round, but has a reload rate of 6 seconds between round. Otherwise, performance are quite similar in terms of HEATFS performance.
  • Sweden flag.png Kan Strv 122 (120 mm) - See Rh120 L/44 entry due to near-identical performances.

Usage in battles

Describe the cannon/machine gun in the game - its distinctive features, tactics of usage against notable opponents. Please don't write a "guide" - do not impose a single point of view, but give the reader food for thought.

Pros and cons

Pros:

  • M829, KE-W (on the M60 AMBT), M829A1 (on the M1A1 HC) and M829A2 (on the M1A2) are powerful shells
  • The M256 on the M1A2 Abrams has access to the high velocity, proximity-fused M830A1 HEAT-MP shell, enabling the M1A2 to engage helicopters and low flying aircraft
  • Reload is comparable to other NATO MBTs - 7.8 seconds stock and 6 seconds with an aced crew
  • Relatively wide selection of shells - M829 and M830 on the M1A1, M829, M829A1, M830 and M830A1 on the M1A1 HC, M829, M829A2, M830 and M830A1 on the M1A2 Abrams. The M60 AMBT gets access to the powerful KE-W APFSDS shell (which is a tungsten based M829A1 shell, without the depleted uranium tip) and the M830 HEATFS shell
  • M830A1 is a fast HEATFS shell with a muzzle velocity of 1,400 m/s
  • Extremely high muzzle velocity on M829, KE-W, M829A1 and M829A2 makes longe range sniping a satisfying experience
  • Great gun handling characteristics - the gun elevates towards +20 and depresses towards -10 very quickly
  • Very effective stabiliser - does not stop working at high speeds

Cons:

  • Poor stock grind - enemy tanks are very capable of withstanding M830 HEAT-FS
  • M830A1 is not effective against enemy MBTs - it only has 350 mm of chemical-based penetration
  • The M256 on the M1A1 Abrams and M60 AMBT do not get access to the M829A1 APFSDS shell and the M830A1 HEAT-MP shell
  • M830A1 needs to travel a certain distance to arm the fuse - unable to engage helicopters at close range, except for a direct hit
  • Average reload for a NATO tank. The reload time is equal to the Leopard 2A5/6, the Strv 122's, the Ariete's, and the Leclerc's. An aced Challenger 2 and Challenger 2 (2F) can beat you by a full second, the Type 90 and Type 90 (B) (due to their autoloader) by a full 2 or 3 seconds, depending on your crewskill
  • M830A1 self-destructs at 4.5 kilometres - helicopters can engage the M1A2 way beyond that range
  • M830A1 requires a direct hit for maximum effectiveness - near hits result in little to no damage to the enemy target

History

In 1972, as the replacement to the cancelled MBT-70 and XM-803 was beginning development by Chrysler and GM, a 120 mm smoothbore gun had been considered. However, the developing gun by West Germany was not expected to be produced in time to meet the scheduled production timeline, and so the 105 mm M68 was retained as the main armament for the upcoming design.[1] In 1976, during the decision on which company will receive the contract to produce the XM-1 tank, a separate decision was made for the tank to be able to accommodate a 120 mm gun in the future, either the British 120 mm rifled gun or the German smoothbore gun. On October 28th, the XM-1 designs were modified with this new requirement.[2] Chrysler eventually won the contract to produce the tanks, but they were armed with the 105 mm M68A1.

A diagram image of the M256 cannon.

The German Rheinmetall 120 mm was eventually chosen to become the next tank armament for US tanks. Receiving a license to produce it, the Watervliet Arsenal produced the Rheinmetall cannon as the M256.[3] With the original Rheinmetall design considered overly complex and expensive, the M256 had been redesigned with fewer parts.[4]

Media

Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.

See also

External links

References

Citations
  1. ↑ Hunnicutt 1990, p.163
  2. ↑ Hunnicutt 1990, p.190
  3. ↑ Hunnicutt 1990, p.224
  4. ↑ Zaloga 1993, p.10
Bibliography
  • Hunnicutt, R.P. Abrams: A History of the American Main Battle Tank. Presidio Press, 1990
  • Zaloga, Steven. M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank 1982-1992. Osprey Publishing Ltd., 1993


USA tank cannons
20 mm  M139
25 mm  LW25 · M242
37 mm  M3 · M5 · M6
57 mm  M1
75 mm  M2 · M2 Howitzer · M3 · M6 · M1897A4 · XM274
76 mm  M1 · M7 · M32 · T185E1
90 mm  M3 · M3A1 · M36 · M41 · M54 · T15E1 · T15E2 · T54 · T208E9
105 mm  M4 · M68 · M68A1 · M68A1E8 · T5E1 · T5E2 · T140E2 · T140E3 · XM35
106 mm  M40A1C
120 mm  M58 · M256 · T53
152 mm  M81 · M162 · XM150E5
155 mm  M185 · T7
165 mm  M135
  Foreign:
20 mm  Rh202 (Germany)
57 mm  6pdr OQF Mk.III (Britain) · ZIS-2 (USSR)
105 mm  Sharir (Israel)
120 mm  IMI MG251 (Israel)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=M256_(120_mm)&oldid=188948"