User talk:bangerland

old convo about mg table and pen probability

I'm pretty sure everyone is still busy with restoration, but I got a few mins off, so I wanted to ask, if there are any graphs around wiki with MG penetration values? At least per caliber? Because since I use a lot of light vehicles I'd like to actually try and estimate which vehicles are a potential danger to them (like French rank 6 tanks with 20mm autocannons for mg, speaking of overkill, lol), and which aren't really (so you can just laugh at them and wait for your reload as they don't use main weapon). I remember someone wrote on one of end-game French tank page (all of which are dead now, as well as jap, lol.) that 20mm gun coaxials only pen up to 34mm point blank, but I think I got incinerated through angled 35mm (so basically 65). Or it was lag and I got side-breached, despite insane angling (again, at 60 degrees it's probably around 40mm too). Comparing to AA pen value doesn't make a lot of sence with that either, as in attempt to bait enemy AA to test it's guns on me even soviet shilka seemed to wreck angled armor in about 3 seconds, so either it can deteriorate armor, or I'm just missing something. I am aware of https://wiki.warthunder.com/Category:Tank_machine_guns , but it was pretty much empty before (like, all the pen tables were on tank pages and not linked from gun pages), and now it's surely dead. --bangerland (talk) 11:43, 31 January 2019 (MSK)

Do you mean just tables with the specified pen at each range, or proper nice line graphs? Creating tables like this for each tank machine gun shouldn't be too hard (I could probably write a program to read the game files then generate all the tables, that said may be quicker to just make them manually). I imagine it would be best to include such tables in the article for the machine guns themselves as it would add something of note to those pages, also having to update practically every US tank page on the wiki if Gaijin change the pen of an M2 50cal would be a right pain (obviously tanks which use the MGs as their main weapon, instead of as a secondary, should have the table on their page).

--Flame2512 (talk) 14:58, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, having at least one table with general info per caliber at 10 and 100m would be nice (as i try to fill out on my page), just to know what they can or can't do. I also would like to know if those tables represent damage to rolled homogenous armour or aluminium (which one then?) or something else, because aluminium seems to have 30% or heavier penalty to armour, compared to homogenous, at least from what i gathered. Also i noticed, that AP-I does more pen for some reason( i mean, when you actually use it in game, not look at numbers), but ricochets more frequently and damage falloff is heavy. Though filling each MG's page would be nice, esp. if the table could be pulled out of there automatically, i guess.

I just wish i knew where to find proper info on them, because i'm tired of having random "LOL YOU DIED" moments, whenever i test them (that moment when i specifically let BMP-2 fire cannon at me on max ROF mode, just to test if it can pen striker at angle is flat out suicidal), so i wanted to make an easily fillable graph or coloured table, so people would know, what to be afraid of in certain light vehicles at their rank/BR, if you get what i mean. So that would be 6 or 10 tables/graphs, make it double if count aluminium armoured vehicles, unless someone goes out of their way and make one for each vehicle. Though it seems like the borderline numbers (like 33 armour vs 32 pen) aren't in favour of armour anyway, because it's then RNG if it pens or not and ROF is usually too high (so that must be included in pen table, even if there is one). Also would be interesting to see how vehicles with internal armour (like type 89) interact with those.

I hope that helps to understand what i meant. --bangerland (talk) 15:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

The way armour works is each shell has a penetration value and each armour type has a armour modifier. You take the thickness of the armour, multiply that with the modifier and then compare that to the penetration of the shell. RHA has a modifier of 1.00 so in effect everything is given relative to RHA. So if you have 100mm of RHA (modifier of 1.00) a shell needs 100mm (100 x 1.00) of pen to get through it; if the armour is High Hardness RHA (modifier 1.25) you need 125mm (100 x 1.25) of pen to get through, and if it is structural steel (modifier 0.45) you need 45mm (100mm x 0.45) of pen to get through. Obviously once you take into account angling and other stuff it gets more complicated but that is the basic gist of it. A list of all the armour modifiers can be found here, although I am unsure how up to date it is. Here are the aluminium ones:

• Aluminium Alloy AA 7039 - 0.47
• Aluminium Alloy AA 7017 - 0.80
• Aluminium Alloy ABT-10 - 0.53
• Aluminium - 0.20

If I have time I will have a look at making penetration tables (like the one I linked to previously) and putting them on the page for each tank MG and auto-cannon.

--Flame2512 (talk) 16:21, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, i figured RHA is the baseline for everything, but wasn't 100% sure. Thanks, that really helps a lot! --bangerland (talk) 16:32, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

It would seem, that new pen stats improved 60° performance on several tanks at cost of 0° performance. However, I also noticed, that several APHE or APCBC shells can now penetrate at almost 89° horizontal+ some vertical, when their stat card says 100% ricochet at ~64° and 71°. Also, these rounds seem to ricochet ingame inside off vehicle's roof (which they DO overmatch completely, but for some reason commander hatch says 220mm non-penetration, lol) down and only then explode, after they penned 30mm somehow. In garage hit detection test does not repeat this weird ricochet, but confirms, that penetration is possible, or that chance is not even 80% when angle is like 85°+vertical. So this begs a few of questions, is there any power% formula for overmatch in between 1.3X and 7.0X? Is Normalization of shell itself applied before hit or after hit (I/e does it counter ricochet chance or not)? And does it apply to vertical and horizontal separately or to sum of those? And do these rules even work after penetration happened? https://wiki.warthunder.com/Damage_mechanics has nothing concrete. Not like I think it's false information, but it doesn't prevent witch hunt tendencies. --bangerland (talk) 11:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Hullbreak mechanics oddity

To add slightly less controversial topic: did anything change about hull break mechanics lately? It seems that object 906 radiator can now tank ATGM and vehicle wont explode. Happened to helicopter and missile carrier on my eyes today, though normally they explode instantly. Strange. --bangerland (talk) 21:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

devs pretty much confirmed that they can tweak hullbreak on certain elements hit with centauro changes and patch notes... So probably whoever uses light vehicles must address probability of hullbreak on engine, radiator, and transmission hit (at least those), as opposed to just "hitting the hull = instant death", as well as turret and hull hits. --bangerland (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

ATGM Method section

Is the entire new section written in the ATGM page just to describe the different ATGM flight patterns? If so, I believe it is overtly complicated in its intended message, with the descriptions added somewhat bordering on military fiction in terms of the development of the design and doctrine, especially since all the sub-titles added for each section (except "Ultra long range attacks") are misleading in the missile's intended, and historical, usage. It could just be slimmed down to "standard, top-down, and hybrid" and just worked from there.--Inceptor57 (talk) 03:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Random questions

So, I was playing the other day, and someone hate mailed me with text of likes: "instant report, aimbot confirmed, stickbot confirmed". What is the stick bot? I was using indirect ATGM spam build that day, but calling them sticks when tankers themselves use APDSFS would be... Hypocritical? Not sure what else that could be. Just curious, lol. --bangerland (talk) 06:58, 14 May 2019 (UTC)