Bangerland

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Revision as of 12:32, 28 April 2019 by Flame2512 (talk | contribs) (How to work out the zoom of a tank scope.)

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This member plays War Thunder on Windows
WW Artillery logo.png
ATGM main, which likes his indirect strikes. Incoming artillery fire!
uk_fv102_striker.png This member considers FV102 Striker the best tank in game.
ussr_is_7.png This member considers IS-7 the best tank in rank V.


Who am I?

I'm a British ground forces main, registered my account at 2016, but really started playing in 2018. Mostly playing in AB, since I feel like vehicles there have most balanced stats game-wise there, if you forget about wallhack and aim assist up to 1km range. If not for those two facts, I'd never ever leave AB, lol. Actually, either of these options on their own would be fine, but together it's is a bit too much sometimes.

I do have some planes, but bombers that I used are very moody mistresses, they have gunners that either destroy every fighter in 360 degrees and on max range, or do nothing. Hurricane MK IIB/trop and Nimrod II so far left the best impression on me.

Favorite ground vehicles so far:

A30 SP Avenger - It really lives up to it's name, whether you snipe with it, or drive it GTA style. Never fails to deliver your salt, even in uptier.

A39 Tortoise - It is fun to play as breakthrough tank, or just to be a giant "boss" tank for players to shoot at, preventing spawn camping. You really will love those instant karma moments, even if you get nothing out of it. Though Germans love to destroy it, and some players outright punch through the middle of it, sadly.

Falcon - It's more effective tank than most rank 5-6 tanks, especially if you know how to fire at tracks with auto cannons, forcing enemy to turn and get destroyed... And it's a good AA, lol. But with every patch Gaijin increases repair price for it in AB by 6k. It's 22k already, while ZSU-57-2 is 2k. Why??? I dunno, beats me. Be careful with trigger discipline, single belt rearms for a minute and then reloads for as long. You will be destroyed :D .

All British ATGMs - That feeling when people just despair and give up in their own cover under ATGM rain is priceless. They launch up to 10 artys at once on you. It makes you feel special, even if you do die from it.

Hated ground vehicles so far:

Conqueror MK2 - God, this thing gets lit on fire even by random vehicles blowing up near to it's side, and explodes from random shots to the track. I even got destroyed by Centurion AVRE, that MISSED me. YEAH. I realize that this vehicle is great in RB and all, but why it is so flammable in AB is beyond me.

Warrior - I love it, but I also hate it. Why BMP-1 cannon shell can hull break warrior even when it hits add-on armor, and cannot hull break striker? Why BMP-2 bullets can instantly destroy armour plates from over 1.5KM and instakill it? I got hit by ATGM from IT-1 and lived somehow, losing all armour on my left side, but cannot survive BMP? How is that??? Common sence is overrated, I guess.

Archnemesis:

IS-4M - whenever I meet it, I don't live long enough to understand where to shoot it, lol.


RELATIVE CAMERA CONTROLS FOR ATGM

Okay, this is very seriously important for any british ATGM main, if you really want to destroy the opposition. It fixes camera issues in melee range and when camping on steep hills.

You need to set "relative camera angle" for your aiming, by going to control-tank-camera control - "view in battle - ground (Y axis)".

In new menu you need to activate "relative controls" and "keep value for disabled axis", then set buttons for "Increase value", "decrease value", "enable axis" and "reset axis value". For example i set them to NUM 7,9,8,4 respectively. The sensitivity is up to taste, but i took it to the extreme, as it's faster to do.

What it does: you use "decrease" and "increase" value to set a direction for camera (down or up basically), and on press of "activate axis" it detaches your camera from your reticle by a certain angle. You can make your camera look sky-high up, so when you actually aim in front of you, you can now truly aim for enemy, not just randomly fire missiles everywhere, enabling you full melee combat capabilities, allowing you to look behind ridges, while aiming, and fixing the damn problem i showed in first post. Or you can fire upwards without looking at the back of your vehicle (though that's usually fixable by just pressing Z, but i digress :) )

When you are done, you use "reset axis value" and "activate axis" to return to normal aiming mode.

It's also possible to do to horizontal axis, allowing to see people behind rocks as you turn missiles there, though it's less useful.

Now only thing left is finding out if it's possible to ruin semi-auto aiming by triggering manual control by a button somehow. Though i doubt i'ts possible.

Before camera adjustment.jpg
after.

Space for special MG tables/graphs (if ever done, lol):

Yes i am aware that different rank MG's and minor caliber changes of certain factions should and might be different on different ranks, but i digress for now, since difference seems insignificant to me ingame, as seen in 7.92.

Anyone is welcome to add info on different calibers, or add specific faction calibre (like french 15.00 or whatever)

HT: heavy tanks, HTD: heavy TD, as in Foch, ISU, and so on.

By heavy damage is implied, that it can destroy some module, but doesn't pen entire vehicle. (if ammo doesnt explode in 1 hit, specify that)

By destruction implied, that if it hits you, with it's ROF you are probably screwed.

low caliber SPAA and autocannons included to compare with french coax autocannon and check other abnormal dps stuff (pen*rof), do not add more of those

In case if you don't know if your LVEH can be penned by MG or not, just use armour protection analysis against BMP-2 and then compare it to numbers in table. That will give you the jist of it.

General oversimplification table of damage for MG and other coaxials per caliber to light vehicle
Caliber Presumable pen point-blank (against RHA, or whatever your "protection analysis" says) presumable pen at 100m (against RHA or whatever your "protection analysis" says) ROF Who uses: Tree removal (y/n) Stone wall removal (y/n) Damage to external armour DPS to flat rear of TD (45 mm homogenous armor) (tested mostly on IT1) DPS/TTK to sloped LVeh (50-65 mm aluminium AA7017) Dps/TTK to angled sides of Lveh/armored turret (20-30mm~~ aluminium 7039) TTK to unangled/ unarmored LVeh (15mm in general, aluminium 7017)
30mm warrior gun, APDS loadout 110 101 Very low Warrior Yes Yes ERA, doesn't seem to do much else Damages engine Heavy damage, 6 hits to destroy ammo Heavy damage, ~2 hits to destroy ammo Heavy damage
~23cal AA only SPAA gun combo ~46 ~45 Insane Non combat SPAA like ZSU-23-4, wirbelwind with no ap ammo and such yes Yes Significant Damages engine. appearantly deteriorates even permament armor to 0 in 3 seconds or so, resulting in destruction. RNG/bug/feature? Destruction RUN
20cal vulcan gun 58 55 (it got buffed i think, because how The 23 mm does less damage??) ~infinity M163 yes Yes It seems to not care. It shredded Vickers MBT from the front eventually, and it has 60 mm RHA, sooo, yeah. Instant death due to millions of ricochets all over the smallest weakspots. Hilarious. RUN RUN
20mm Crusader AA cannons and such 41 ~39 Heavy since twin guns.. Most early autocannon tanks and such yes Yes Seems to not damage 5mm plates Penetrated, despite it being statistically impossible, or Bypasses external armor (5mm) Unknown Destruction Destruction
BMP2 30mm autocannon, AP-T load 64 61 medium or insane Bmp2 Y Y instant destruction Unknown, probably destruction AP-T seems to not penetrate ~60, for no reason. It seems having high ground may help. Destruction Destruction
20cal coax cannon 47 supposedly 34 (unverified source)

44 , 31 up to 500m by ingame stats (nerfed lately)

Heavy French rank 6, amx-30 (r5) and some top german MBTs unknown unknown Unknown Unknown Can cause Destruction for unknown reason.

No damage to ~55mm of alloy7039, or just doesn't damage heavily sloped armor. (unlikely)

Destruction, but no AOE damage, so it damages weakspot of LV with 30mm but nothing more so far. At least from french gun. Destruction, 1 sec max
15.0 mm MG 36 34 (ultra nerf down from 45 lol) unknown French HT and HTD unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown
14.5 mm KPVT 45 seems to be around ~26mm, but sometimes pen more.

42 by ingame stats, but seems doubtful. (how da hell it's still so op when french one is nerfed??)

low to Medium is7, is10m, soviet HTD rank 5 unknown unknown Unknown Unknown Does nothing to 60+mm, but either 38 or 44mm on warrior's alloy 7039 rear achieved destruction. assumed 50mm of AA7039 seems to hold off. Heavy damage, sets off ammo in 1 hit, can AOE from turret shots. Destruction
12.7 mm DShK and such 29 seems to be around ~26mm, but sometimes pen more.

27 by ingame stats

low to Medium HT and HTD , some MBTs of rank4+, unknown unknown Unknown None None Heavy damage, sets off ammo in 1 hit, can AOE from turret shots. Destruction in 1 sec max
12.7 mm M2HB USA edition 26 25 by ingame stats, but seems to be around 26. low to Medium USA on rank2+, half of JPN vehicles on any BR unknown unknown unknown None somehow did damage after 5 sec or fire from M103.

perhaps hit weakspot with ~30mm.

unknown Destruction in 1 sec max
8.00 10 9 by ingame stats (how even if 7.92 is better?) ??? Italy up to rank 2 unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown
7.92 13 less than 13?

12 by ingame stats

Medium German tanks before rank 4, their HT and HTD past rank 4 unknown unknown ERA only Unknown seems to do no damage Unknown, since nobody tries to use it on selected vehicles Resistable
7.7 10 9 by ingame stats Low Japanese rank 1-3 No No unknown unknown unknown unknown useless
7.62 10 less than 13?

9 by ingame stats

Low to medium, heavy on rank 6 German medium vehicles rank4+, french before rank 6 and most british tanks use something similiar, most USSR mbts No No ERA only No damage No damage Nonexistant/ignorable seems to be useless even point-blank vs ~13mm aluminium alloy
7,50 10 9 by ingame stats unknown French at various ranks unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown unknown

I gather that SPAA guns penetrate at least 7mm more than ingame tip says, at least for aluminium... And with highter ROF it may cause instakill even on vehicles, that are supposed to be permamently resistant to it, so probably MG does that as well. Perhaps there is some HP value in structures that i'm unaware of or sth. External armour seems to not faze them, anyway.

Also in my experience insanely high ROF of BMP2 allows to annihilate warrior through side add-on plates from over 2kilometers, which should be impossible, which only further increases mine suspicions. Even if we consider plates as dead after ~10 hits, this still seems fishy. The only time i survived BMP2 was when it was completely stock and fired on me at 20 degree angle in LowROF mode, and i executed them in 2 seconds (so 3 seconds TTK time from ZSU test is still relevant in my eyes).

After getting more proper specific info for all calibres (without oversimplifying it maybe, if someone can add info for rest nations, or even per-rank, if possible) i'd want to find a way to convert it into colourful graph or table.

For lols, we could also make similiar autocannon chart for MBT armour VS IFV/combat SPAA autoguns, since it's appearanly a problem for tanks on all ranks.

Conclusion for armor protection so far:

AP-T (incindenary Armor piercing) ammo negates inclination armor modifiers, just like APHE of soviets, which makes it as good as APDS against angled armor, which is extremely unfair (lol).

However, IAP seems to have much worse ricochets angle than APDS and such shells, so high ground negates it as long as you have 65mm total. APDS cannot pen much more at this angle either, because it has no modifiers, just huge raw numbers.

This kind of explains how the hell soviets HMG destroy sloped turret of warrior in 1 hit, but sometimes cannot destroy Striker's hull even with BMP2 guns for example.

The weirdness is further increased by fact that aluminium alloy has huge penalty to armor (which is not properly displayed in statistics, and goes all ways from 20% to 50%) and insane ROF of auto cannons and such, which convert 5% chance of pen into guaranteed kill.

External plating often seems to be completely ignored whenever penetration of enemy ammo > armor of plate, or just gets destroyed in 5 hits at it. Doesn't even have to be angled for this at certain points. This explains how the hell BMP-2 deletes warrior from 2km range.Even if you nitpick and check side skirts from top and it says "6mm" it still makes no sence, since 44+6=50+angle because firing distance, that's already enough to stop bullets from 500m, but protection analysis says "34". I guess if you take 70% of both numbers that's going to be it. (because aluminium alloy i guess) That's all fun and all, but you still have RNG roll to get penned at ranges where armor is insignificantly better than penetration.Seems to be proved by panther D side (40+5) being penned by Crusader AAmk2, and striker armor being eventually destroyed by "shilka". Also most light vehicles have glaring weakspots with 10mm less armor (like this isn't enough, lol)

As in, the protection analysis feature seems to like to ignore external plates for life, so it's safe to assume, that on random occasion bullets can just go through them anyway. They still protect from HESH and single cannon shots though.

High ground seems to help against MG and Autocannon in case of solid permament armor, however if in case of Striker transmission eats any bullets coming through LFP, in case of warrior the external shield (made of rolled homogenous armor, tons of NERA and even 38mm more aluminium, just saying) that is supposed to stop anything going for driver thought LFP will be ignored, resulting in instant death, since bullets will just pen it and explode the ammo rack through driver (because screw logic i guess).

Required precise test of every MG type onto warrior's ventilation shield weakspot, specifically frontal protection plate and rear (on both the 38mm door and 44.4mm rest) to find out if it's all the same with 12mm, 14mm, 20mm coaxial, 7.62mm for this. External armor seems to be majorly useless against kinetic damage, so yeah.

////

Even if BRs allow different ranks of MGs to be used on you, simplified graph would look kind of like this:

Your vehicle's hull vulnerability to MG in your matchmaking:

I want to do it through Colours if possible.

Black = instant death,

red = only tankable by front, can still destroy your armor or damage fatal weakspots/turret/cupola and cause your death somehow,

orange = Only tankable by front,

yellow = angled sides can tank it,

green = only rear or not-so-obvious weakspot is endangered,

white/blue/idk = no threat.

Instead of faction names could use flags.

Threat of MG/autocannon in CQC on your BR/rank
Nation LT TD MT HV AA
French
USA
Japanese
USSR
German
Italy
British

Possibly, we will want two of these per vehicle, if it will be known, that high ROF or focused fire of many vehicles even of low cal can delete your vehicle, or simply to show danger with/without weakspots in general (for example warrior wearing ADD-on armor is okay as long as you broadside and they fire on your hull, but they still can try to wreck your turret with HMG, so GG., as for without ADD-on armor... well... rip.) Perhaps i can use lighting icon to symbolize "likely crew incapacitation".


Some random images left by wiki moderator to help me remember how to upload pictures:

File:GarageImage Hunter F 1.jpg
The Hunter F 1 in the Garage.

http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Hunter_F_1

Link to upload stuff : http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Special:Upload .

Talk/comment section, In case if you want to write exactly here:

@Bangerland, here are a couple of options for formatting images here on the wiki. You can check out options on Google for GIFs (although, I don't think the formatting is much different for them). You want to make sure when uploading images, that you don't upload copyrighted images (without permission). Feel free to load images you take from the game, public domain images or copyrighted images which you have received permission and annotate in the information section of the image posted.


Here is the link to upload images and GIFs: http://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Special:Upload

Also, this is your page, you can add, edit or remove data here as you would like. Good luck! - AN TRN 26 (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Does someone maybe know a way to use the marketplace thing without double authentication? Wanted to exchange some junk to get decals for fun, but this thing just wont let go... IDK why every company just assumes i have 2k$ phone, or have time to set up emulator, or even care about mine account's safety. It's really frustrating to me, because decal even costs like 0.13 points of whatever the currency is, and i could get 4 easily by dumping SU-85a, which i wasn't going to ever use anyway. If that's oficially and even unoficially not possible, at the very least some recommendation of easy to setup emulator would be nice. (bluestacks gave me headache previous time i tried to use it.) --U42773747 (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have a recommendation. I was able to set up double authentication, but the market still would not let me purchase anything so I didn't pursue it any further. I have used Bluestacks and it seemed to be a resource hog and worked most of the time, but recently I have switched to MEmu (https://www.memuplay.com/) and that one seems to run a bit better and is fairly easy to get going, maybe that will help with the emulator portion. -- AN_TRN_26 (talk) 01:30, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
You don't need a phone to enable 2 factor. You can turn on 2 factor by email.--blastedryan (talk) 03:56, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, i guess i was confused by unclear writing on the site and overall practice with this on internet. After logging in separately in actual browser managed to use marketplace. (in-game browser seems to be unstable with this) --U42773747 (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Another question - is there any way to learn exact magnification value on tank/gun? X-ray and stat-cards seem to not tell optics zoom on tanks. Would never tell ST-A1 is a decent tank, but OH GOD THIS OPTIC HAS AT LEAST X12 MAGNIFICATION. I mean... Many rank 6-7 tanks wish they had optics this good, you can even see tanks from over 1km in detail with this. If not , maybe we should include optics as a detail on tank pages if possible? --U42773747 (talk) 17:16, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't play tanks very often, so I don't know, Inceptor57 or one of the other mods may have more info on that. If there is enough information to write up on the optics (if there are really that many different ones/zoom levels) then it's possible a small section may be worth is. You can always work on mocking one up on your page and we can see where it goes. AN_TRN_26 (talk) 18:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Problem is, only few tanks display optics info. Like... uh. I only found it on newer tanks of rank 6 and leopard line, as example, you hover over one of 89-s numerous optics, on one of them you see "optics X2-X8 zoom". The warrior just says "Optics X8", challenger "optics X4-10". But even in rank 6 i look at many tanks and see nothing (like KPz-70 data is omitted), and i have failed to find ones at rank 5 and below, except for Leopard I. I suspect those had to be filled by developers, but weren't in case of at least 90% of vehicles. And so, i don't have any solid information, only the subjective zoom impact info from comparing one to another. Well, because even default (minimal) gunner zoom is always different too, i have no clue what X1 even looks like. And some scopes seem to diffirentiate even by X0.3s, as Leopard A1A1 suggests, which is mind boggling.
The difference is about like this (actual magnification extremely subjective, but the proportion i judged by "compass" on top of screen, which changes the distance between degrees with zoom magnification, so its still sort of true): Rank 1 tank has only X2 zoom as default (i suppose as things look closer than from 3PV) and X4 as second one (on press of Z), then you have rank 4 tanks with mostly X2-4 as default and about X4-5 as secondary, but you do get expections on tanks like M26 "D.C.Ariete" with X5 and X6. And so is with the many of the medium tanks, with X4 you barely see tanks at 1km range. Then you have sth like Object 120, which has X4 as default and about X8 as secondary , or Ru 251 with ~X7 and ~X8 , then you have something like German SPG Panzer IV/70(A) or rank 7 Challenger 2 which is supposed to be "the ultimate hulldown tank", and these ones have ~X4-6 by default and about X10 as secondary zoom. There is also Leopard A1A1 (L/44) which has like X10.3 as default and X12 as secondary zoom. And finally you have something really rare like Leopard 2K(and few other from those lineup), or rank 4 ST-A1 with about X8 as default and X16+ on secondary zoom (and probably the entire japanese tank line after that one too, as their rank 6 premium has similiar scope). The damn default zoom is as good as than the last one of top tier "sniper tanks". And what is worse , only few tanks have this insane optic. And the difficulty of aiming is different too, as the marks on scope (which say the shell drop distance) also become bigger and have quite the distance from eachother on that scope, even with APDSFS, so you don't have to stare at your screen so hard. You know, i often questioned Leopard 1 driver's sanity, as they constantly go for cross-map snipes and hit me in SPG from 2km away on the move, when i barely even see them in sniper scope, but when you know their optics are like 4-8 times better than yours, it makes at least some sense.
I doubt a whole subsection would be needed to be created, because as much as i look, commander's binoculars seem to have same ~X6 increment on every vehicle, and cannot be zoomed, so you can't even make a big meaningfull table called "optics" to be filled like "gunners optics, Default, zoomed", "Commander optics, default, zoom". But i feel like adding lil table with optics of gunner to "main armament' subsection would be great. Here is an example: ("which ones" is there just in case Multi-turreted tanks have different zoom levels on different guns, though i failed to find one such example yet.)
Optics (Xmagnification)
Which ones Default Maximum (zoomed in)
Main Gun optics X4.3 X12
Even if that is too much, we have this default table explaining the guidance and stabilizer on the gun, and its fire rate (though without mentioning of autoloader, which also impacts things sometimes, like sudden knockout of loader not stopping/resetting the reload). And there are 2 empty slots after reload speed, which i always use in SPAA pages to say "rearm time", as those take forever and are on separate timers. We could appropriate those 2 slots to be like optics-> minimal zoom, maximal zoom instead? But problem is, table looks like it's supposed to be linked to gun page, not vehicle itself, or something. --U42773747 (talk) 20:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
I like the looks of that table, something like that could be doable. Might be something to find a static marker/target in the trial yard and snap a screenshot of the target through the scope at each of its different settings and have those on the page for people to visually compare to, they don't have to be huge images, people can click on them (or it can be a composite of the images so one image has all magnifications side by side, that might be useful too. Might be good to have Inceptor57 weigh in on this, he is more of a tank guy than I am. AN_TRN_26 (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
So, you want to add like a line into instructions, for people to compare or something like that? In a way of "If you can, check magnification of gunner's scope at This page and apply screenshots that match minimal and maximum zoom of this vehicle's optics here."? I feel like composite image might be hard to use, especially with wiki engine here. It will probably be better to have a lot of images you can scroll with those arrows. Like, make a page called "optics magnifications" and make a gallery of them, being commented like "X2" or "X4" "X8", "X8.8" (damn french RC car!), "X10", "X10,3" (damn leopard!) and such. For those vehicles, that have specified zoom, I could use enemy tank from test drive in AB mode, to use as a mark. Problem is, though, the vehicles may be different all the time for different factions/ranks. With AB rangefinder i always can make sure enemy stands at exactly 1km range, but ofcourse having only one same target for this would be better, to not get confused with different target sizes, but mine resources are kind of limited to what brits (and maybe japs) have, and the premium german test drives. Having a tree or building as a mark instead might be kind of... Counterintuitive? I have one ruined tank hull in mind (even with a tree in a way to have some comparsion) and can make sure it's 1km away via AB rangefinder, but for other people to drive that far and double check it, that would take forever. Anyhow, should i write to Inceptor57 about it directly or they might notice our discussion at their own time? --U42773747 (talk) 21:33, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
I think it is possible to data-mine the tank optics zoom. In a tank BLK file if you divide 74 by the "zoomOutFov" or "zoomInFov" field that gives you the default and zoomed in magnification (it has a load of decimal points after it but when you round it to 1 d.p it is nearly always accurate, sometimes you will be out by 0.1 x though). Not sure the significance of 74, presumably it is the FoV of a 1x zoom or something. I worked this out by taking the standard zoom of the Challenger 2 (stated as x 4 in game), then multiplying it by the "zoomOutFov" field in the challenger 2 blk file to get 74. If I then pick other tanks in game which have a zoom specified and divide 74 by the "zoomOutFov" & "zoomInFoV" fields in their files the number you get nearly always rounds to what the zoom level was stated at in game. --Flame2512 (talk) 12:32, 28 April 2019 (UTC)