Difference between pages "A5M4" and "Kugelblitz"

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{{Specs-Card|code=a5m4}}
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{{Specs-Card|code=germ_flakpanzer_IV_Kugelblitz}}
{{About
 
| about = Japanese fighter '''{{PAGENAME}}'''
 
| usage = the premium version
 
| link = Hagiri's A5M4
 
}}
 
  
 
== Description ==
 
== Description ==
<!-- ''In the description, the first part should be about the history of and the creation and combat usage of the aircraft, as well as its key features. In the second part, tell the reader about the aircraft in the game. Insert a screenshot of the vehicle, so that if the novice player does not remember the vehicle by name, he will immediately understand what kind of vehicle the article is talking about.'' -->
+
<!--''In the description, the first part should be about the history of the creation and combat usage of the vehicle, as well as its key features. In the second part, tell the reader about the ground vehicle in the game. Insert a screenshot of the vehicle, so that if the novice player does not remember the vehicle by name, he will immediately understand what kind of vehicle the article is talking about.''-->
[[File:GarageImage_{{PAGENAME}}.jpg|420px|thumb|left]]
+
<!--[[File:GarageImage_{{PAGENAME}}.jpg|420px|thumb|left]]-->
 
{{break}}
 
{{break}}
The '''{{Specs|name}}''' is a rank {{Specs|rank}} Japanese fighter {{Battle-rating}}. It has been in the game since the start of the Open Beta Test prior to Update 1.27.
+
The '''{{Specs|name}}''' is a rank {{Specs|rank}} German Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (SPAA) vehicle {{Battle-rating}}. It was introduced in [[Update 1.43]].
  
 
== General info ==
 
== General info ==
=== Flight Performance ===
+
=== Survivability and armour ===
''Describe how the aircraft behaves in the air. Speed, manoeuvrability, acceleration and allowable loads - these are the most important characteristics of the vehicle.''
+
''Describe armour protection. Note the most well protected and key weak areas. Appreciate the layout of modules as well as the number and location of crew members. Is the level of armour protection sufficient, is the placement of modules helpful for survival in combat?''
 
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="8" | Characteristics
 
|-
 
! colspan="8" | ''Stock''
 
|-
 
! colspan="2" | Max Speed<br>(km/h at 2,900 m)
 
! rowspan="2" | Max altitude<br>(meters)
 
! colspan="2" | Turn time<br>(seconds)
 
! colspan="2" | Rate of climb<br>(meters/second)
 
! rowspan="2" | Take-off run<br>(meters)
 
|-
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
|-
 
| 431 || 421 || {{Specs|ceiling}} || 12.5 || 13.4 || 10 || 10 || 325
 
|-
 
! colspan="8" | ''Upgraded''
 
|-
 
! colspan="2" | Max Speed<br>(km/h at 2,900 m)
 
! rowspan="2" | Max altitude<br>(meters)
 
! colspan="2" | Turn time<br>(seconds)
 
! colspan="2" | Rate of climb<br>(meters/second)
 
! rowspan="2" | Take-off run<br>(meters)
 
|-
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
! AB
 
! RB
 
|-
 
| 463 || 447 || {{Specs|ceiling}} || 12.1 || 12.3 || 16.7 || 12.8 || 325
 
|-
 
|}
 
 
 
==== Details ====
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="5" | Features
 
|-
 
! Combat flaps
 
! Take-off flaps
 
! Landing flaps
 
! Air brakes
 
! Arrestor gear
 
|-
 
| ✓ || ✓ || ✓ || X || ✓    <!-- ✓ -->
 
|-
 
|}
 
 
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="5" | Limits
 
|-
 
! rowspan="2" | Wing-break speed<br>(km/h)
 
! rowspan="2" | Gear limit<br>(km/h)
 
! rowspan="2" | Combat flaps<br>(km/h)
 
! colspan="2" | Max Static G
 
|-
 
! +
 
! -
 
|-
 
| {{Specs|destruction|constructions}} || {{Specs|destruction|chassis}} || 420 || ~12 || ~4
 
|-
 
|}
 
 
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="4" | Optimal velocities
 
|-
 
! Ailerons<br>(km/h)
 
! Rudder<br>(km/h)
 
! Elevators<br>(km/h)
 
! Radiator<br>(km/h)
 
|-
 
| < 280 || < 320 || < 360 || > 324
 
|-
 
|}
 
 
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="3" | Compressor (RB/SB)
 
|-
 
! colspan="3" | Setting 1
 
|-
 
! Optimal altitude
 
! 100% Engine power
 
! WEP Engine power
 
|-
 
| 2,000 m || 680 hp || 788 hp
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
====Engine performance====
+
''If necessary use a visual template to indicate the most secure and weak zones of the armour.''
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="4" | Engine
 
|-
 
! colspan="3" | Engine Name
 
! colspan="3" | Number present
 
|-
 
| colspan="3" | Nakajima Kotobuki 41 9-cylinder || colspan="1" | 1
 
|-
 
! colspan="4" | Engine characteristics
 
|-
 
! colspan="2" | Weight (each)
 
! colspan="1" | Type
 
! colspan="1" | Cooling
 
|-
 
| colspan="2" | 350 kg || Radial || Air
 
|-
 
! colspan="4" | Engine power (Stock)
 
|-
 
! colspan="1" | Mode
 
! colspan="2" | Max
 
! colspan="2" | Take-off
 
|-
 
| ''Arcade'' || colspan="2" | 557 hp || colspan="2" | 656 hp
 
|-
 
| ''Realistic/Simulator'' || colspan="2" | 551 hp || colspan="2" | 650 hp
 
|-
 
! colspan="4" | Engine power (Upgraded)
 
|-
 
! Mode
 
! colspan="2" | Max
 
! colspan="2" | Take-off
 
|-
 
| ''Arcade'' || colspan="2" | 700 hp || colspan="2" | 799 hp
 
|-
 
| ''Realistic/Simulator'' || colspan="2" | 619 hp || colspan="2" | 718 hp
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
+
=== Mobility ===
|-
+
<!-- ''Write about the mobility of the ground vehicle. Estimate the specific power and manoeuvrability, as well as the maximum speed forwards and backwards.'' -->
! colspan="4" | WEP Duration
 
|-
 
! colspan="2" | Arcade
 
! colspan="2" | Realistic/Simulator
 
|-
 
| colspan="2" | 25 seconds || colspan="2" | Infinite
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
=== Survivability and armour ===
+
{{tankMobility|abMinHp= 426|rbMinHp= 265|<!--AoAweight=(optional) -->}}
<!-- ''Examine the survivability of the aircraft. Note how vulnerable the structure is and how secure the pilot is, whether the fuel tanks are armoured, etc. Describe the armour, if there is any, and also mention the vulnerability of other critical aircraft systems.'' -->
 
Like most Japanese planes, the A5M4 has no armour to protect the pilot and components of the plane. The best way to survive is to turn fight. Join a dogfight, make sure you can see your enemy at all times because it will only take a few good hits to the pilot or components to put this plane out of action.
 
  
 
== Armaments ==
 
== Armaments ==
=== Offensive armament ===
+
=== Main armament ===
<!-- ''Describe the offensive armament of the aircraft, if any. Describe how effective the cannons and machine guns are in a battle, and also what belts or drums are better to use. If there is no offensive weaponry, delete this subsection.'' -->
+
''Give the reader information about the characteristics of the main gun. Assess its effectiveness in a battle based on the reloading speed, ballistics and the power of shells. Do not forget about the flexibility of the fire, that is how quickly the cannon can be aimed at the target, open fire on it and aim at another enemy. Add a link to the main article on the gun: <code><nowiki>{{main|Name of the weapon}}</nowiki></code>. Describe in general terms the ammunition available for the main gun. Give advice on how to use them and how to fill the ammunition storage.''
{{main|Type 89 army (7.7 mm)}}
 
  
The '''''{{PAGENAME}}''''' is armed with:
+
=== Additional armament ===
 +
''Some tanks are armed with several guns in one or more turrets. Evaluate the additional weaponry and give advice on its use. Describe the ammunition available for additional weaponry. Give advice on how to use them and how to fill the ammunition storage. If there is no additional weaponry remove this subsection.''
  
* 2 x 7.7 mm Type 89 army machine guns, nose-mounted (500 rpg = 1,000 total)
+
=== Machine guns ===
 +
''Offensive and anti-aircraft machine guns not only allow you to fight some aircraft but also are effective against lightly armoured vehicles. Evaluate machine guns and give recommendations on its use.''
  
 
== Usage in battles ==
 
== Usage in battles ==
<!-- ''Describe the tactics of playing in an aircraft, the features of using vehicles in a team and advice on tactics. Refrain from creating a "guide" - do not impose a single point of view, but instead, give the reader food for thought. Examine the most dangerous enemies and give recommendations on fighting them. If necessary, note the specifics of the game in different modes (AB, RB, SB).'' -->
+
''Describe the tactics of playing in the vehicle, the features of using vehicles in the team and advice on tactics. Refrain from creating a "guide" - do not impose a single point of view but instead give the reader food for thought. Describe the most dangerous enemies and give recommendations on fighting them. If necessary, note the specifics of the game in different modes (AB, RB, SB).''
Fighter role, staying low and using the extremely quick turn times to get on the tail on the enemy is essential. Keep an eye on ammo levels and well as your surroundings, this is an extremely weak aircraft in terms of armour. It is relatively fast in a straight line, but not as quick as much of the opposition it will be facing in the game. It is recommended to use speed against [[:Category:Biplanes|biplanes]] as their turn times are nearly matched if not better than this monoplane.
 
 
 
===Realistic battles===
 
The A5M4 can accelerate to 350 km/h in just less than a minutes time from takeoff. Will climb up to 2,500 m in around one minute and fifty seconds time when climbing in a 20-degree angle. Dive speeds are decent as the A5M4 will exceed 550 km/h in an 80-degree angle from just 2,500 m height. Be careful though, once the A5M4 reaches 560 km/h, the plane will violently shake about and if the throttle isn't cut, the plane wings may rip off. Though speed can be gained in the dive, energy is not easily retained, taking only a minute or so to fall to back to the maximum speed of 380 km/h with WEP or 360 km/h without.
 
 
 
Decent horsepower with the typical Japanese light aircraft would give the idea that the plane would be great in the vertical axis dog fighting. With a problem with keeping constant fuel flow as the plane changes the angle on its vertical axis means it is better to stick with horizontal dog fighting which isn't a bad thing as it will outturn most all contemporary aircraft.
 
 
 
=== Simulator mode procedures ===
 
Hands-off carrier take-off (Auto engine control): Ignite engine, flaps: raised, elevator trim: 6% up, aileron trim: 0%, rudder trim: 21% right, WEP throttle, hands off controls until the plane lifts off the carrier.
 
 
 
=== Manual Engine Control ===
 
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
 
|-
 
! colspan="7" | MEC elements
 
|-
 
! rowspan="2" | Mixer
 
! rowspan="2" | Pitch
 
! colspan="3" | Radiator
 
! rowspan="2" | Supercharger
 
! rowspan="2" | Turbocharger
 
|-
 
! Oil
 
! Water
 
! Type
 
|-
 
| Controllable || rowspan="2" | Controllable<br>Not auto controlled || rowspan="2" | Controllable<br>Not auto controlled || rowspan="2" | Controllable<br>Not auto controlled || rowspan="2" | Separate || rowspan="2" | Not controllable<br>1 gear || rowspan="2" | Not controllable
 
|-
 
|}
 
 
 
=== Modules ===
 
{| class="wikitable"
 
! colspan="1" | Tier
 
! colspan="2" | Flight performance
 
! colspan="1" | Survivability
 
! colspan="1" | Weaponry
 
|-
 
| I
 
| Fuselage repair
 
| Radiator
 
|
 
| Offensive 7 mm
 
|-
 
| II
 
|
 
| Compressor
 
| Airframe
 
| New 7 mm MGs
 
|-
 
| III
 
| Wings repair
 
| Engine
 
|
 
|
 
|-
 
| IV
 
|
 
| Engine injection
 
| Cover
 
|
 
|-
 
|}
 
  
 
=== Pros and cons ===
 
=== Pros and cons ===
<!-- ''Summarise and briefly evaluate the vehicle in terms of its characteristics and combat effectiveness. Mark its pros and cons in the bulleted list. Try not to use more than 6 points for each of the characteristics. Avoid using categorical definitions such as "bad", "good" and the like - use substitutions with softer forms such as "inadequate" and "effective".'' -->
+
<!--Summarize and briefly evaluate the vehicle in terms of its characteristics and combat effectiveness. Mark its pros and cons in a bulleted list. Try not to use more than 6 points for each of the characteristics. Avoid using categorical definitions such as "bad", "good" and the like - they can be substituted with softer forms such as "inadequate" and "effective".-->
  
'''Pros:'''
+
'''Pros:'''  
  
* Great turn time
+
* High rate of fire for a 30mm cannon
* Good visibility (In cockpit view)
+
* Fast turret rotation speed
* Low stall speed
+
* Very good at taking out other SPAA or lightly armoured vehicles
 +
* Average movement speed
 +
* Access to many unlockable ammo belts
  
 
'''Cons:'''
 
'''Cons:'''
  
* No armour
+
* Although having thick armour for a SPAA, its still not enough to stop any kind of tank shell at its rank
* Poor pilot protection
+
* Long reload time
* Low top speed (Due to the fixed landing gear)
 
* Poor gun cooling, easily jams from continuous firing
 
* Suffers from fuel starvation problems (RB/SB)
 
  
 
== History ==
 
== History ==
''Describe the history of the creation and combat usage of the aircraft in more detail than in the introduction. If the historical reference turns out to be too long, take it to a separate article, taking a link to the article about the vehicle and adding a block "/ History" (example: <nowiki>https://wiki.warthunder.com/(Vehicle-name)/History</nowiki>) and add a link to it here using the <code>main</code> template. Be sure to reference text and sources by using <code><nowiki><ref></ref></nowiki></code>, as well as adding them at the end of the article with <code><nowiki><references /></nowiki></code>. This section may also include the vehicle's dev blog entry (if applicable) and the in-game encyclopedia description (under <code><nowiki>=== In-game description ===</nowiki></code>, also if applicable).''
+
The ''Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz'' ("Ball Lightning") was a German self-propelled anti-aircraft gun developed during World War II. By the end of the war, only a pilot production of five units had been completed. It is possible some of these were used in the Battle of Berlin. <ref>German Tanks of World War II: The Complete Illustrated history of German Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1926-1945, F. M. von Senger und Etterlin</ref>
 +
 
 +
One Kugelblitz was also involved in the fight near the town of Spichra, Thuringia, where it was destroyed and remained buried in the Spatenberg Hill until its excavation in 1999.<ref>"Vor 60 Jahren: Die Kampfe um Horchen, Spichra und Creuzburg - Teil 2" (in German). Milan.de. Retrieved 2011-07-17</ref>
  
 
=== In-game description ===
 
=== In-game description ===
A single-seater, carrier-based, all-metal monoplane fighter with an open cockpit and fixed landing gear. The world's first carrier-based monoplane. A prototype of this fighter first flew on February 4, 1935. After extensive adjustments, the fighter was commissioned by the Japanese navy and designated carrier fighter type 96 (A5M). Mass production began in the fall of 1936.
+
A continuation of the line of German AA vehicles based on the Pz.IV tank. It was the first AA vehicle to have a fully enclosed turret.  
 
 
In 1938, the fine-tuned A5M4 (model 4, later re-designated the model 24) variant was launched. This model had several new features: a new, more streamlined cockpit canopy with improved visibility, advanced fairings, and a radio transmitter. Since bombers often had to operate in the dark, the plane had landing lights and lights for flights over the open seas at night. The plane was equipped with a film camera near the left of the landing gear.
 
 
 
The power plant was a 9-cylinder radial air-cooled Nakajima Kotobuki 41 with a rated capacity of 795 horsepower. The plane had a two-bladed (later three-bladed) wooden variable pitch propellor, the Sumitomo VDM. Later planes began to use the Kotobuki 41KAI engine (which had roughly the same power), a design designated as model 34.
 
 
 
The A5M's armament consisted of two fuselage-mounted synchronous 7.7mm Nippon-Seikosho type 89 model 2 (Vickers "class E") machine guns with 500 rounds of ammunition each. Two 30-kg type 97 bombs could be carried under the wings. Under the fuselage, an additional 160-liter fuel tank could be carried. Later, this fuel tank was increased in size to 210 liters.
 
  
The A5M fighter saw action over China from September 1937 to September 1941. It was also active early on in the war in the Pacific, used for some time to defend Japan and the Marshall Islands. Afterwards, it was used for training missions and flight school. In 1945, the remaining A5M fighters were used for kamikaze missions.
 
 
Overall, the A5M met the contemporary requirements for a fighter. It was stable and maneuverable and was easy to control. However, the fighter's construction did not easily allow for upgrades, and it quickly became obsolete. Its armament was poor, its armor non-existent, its fuel tanks not self-sealing, and its wings overly weak.
 
 
Production of the A5M ceased in 1941. A total of 1,095 A5M fighters (of all variants) were produced.
 
 
=== Notable pilots ===
 
 
<div><ul>
 
<li style="display: inline-block;"> [[File:Tetsuzo_Iwamoto_Profile.jpg|thumb|none|200px|link=User:U64962917#Iwamoto_Tetsuzō|[[User:U64962917#Iwamoto_Tetsuzō|Iwamoto's]] first combat experience was in 1938 when flying against Chinese [[I-15 (Family)|I-15]] and [[I-16 (Family)|I-16]] fighters.]] </li><!--
 
<li style="display: inline-block;"> [[File:X.jpg|thumb|none|200px|"Image Description"]] </li>
 
<li style="display: inline-block;"> [[File:X.jpg|thumb|none|200px|"Image Description"]] </li>
 
<li style="display: inline-block;"> [[File:X.jpg|thumb|none|250px|"Image Description"]] </li>-->
 
</ul></div>
 
 
== Media ==
 
== Media ==
<!-- ''Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.'' -->
+
''Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.''
;Images
 
<div><ul>
 
<li style="display: inline-block;"> [[File:First battle a5m4.jpg|thumb|none|250px|Graphic of the A5M4 player will see after completing the first battle in the airplane.]] </li>
 
</ul></div>
 
 
 
;Skins
 
* Skin and Camouflages for the '''A5M4''' can be found on [http://live.warthunder.com/feed/camouflages/?q=%23a5m4 War Thunder Live].
 
  
 
== See also ==
 
== See also ==
 
''Links to the articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:''
 
''Links to the articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:''
  
* ''reference to the series of the aircraft;''
+
* ''reference to the series of the vehicles;''
 
* ''links to approximate analogues of other nations and research trees.''
 
* ''links to approximate analogues of other nations and research trees.''
  
 
== External links ==
 
== External links ==
<!-- ''Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:''
+
''Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:''
 +
 
 
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
 
* ''topic on the official game forum;''
* ''encyclopedia page on the aircraft;''
+
* ''encyclopedia page on the tank;''
* ''other literature.'' -->
+
* ''other literature.''
 
 
* [[Wikipedia:Mitsubishi_A5M|[Wikipedia<nowiki>]</nowiki> Mitsubishi A5M]]
 
  
{{AirManufacturer Mitsubishi}}
+
{{Germany anti-aircraft vehicles}}
{{Japan fighters}}
 

Revision as of 14:35, 2 March 2020

VTOL | Rank 5 USA
AV-8A Harrier Pack
Kugelblitz
germ_flakpanzer_iv_kugelblitz.png
Kugelblitz
AB RB SB
7.3 7.0 7.0
Class:
Research:71 000 Specs-Card-Exp.png
Purchase:210 000 Specs-Card-Lion.png
Show in game

Description


The Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz is a rank IV German Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft (SPAA) vehicle with a battle rating of 7.3 (AB) and 7.0 (RB/SB). It was introduced in Update 1.43.

General info

Survivability and armour

Describe armour protection. Note the most well protected and key weak areas. Appreciate the layout of modules as well as the number and location of crew members. Is the level of armour protection sufficient, is the placement of modules helpful for survival in combat?

If necessary use a visual template to indicate the most secure and weak zones of the armour.

Mobility

Game Mode Max Speed (km/h) Weight (tons) Engine power (horsepower) Power-to-weight ratio (hp/ton)
Forward Reverse Stock Upgraded Stock Upgraded
Arcade 43 8 25 426 572 17.04 22.88
Realistic 39 8 265 300 10.6 12

Armaments

Main armament

Give the reader information about the characteristics of the main gun. Assess its effectiveness in a battle based on the reloading speed, ballistics and the power of shells. Do not forget about the flexibility of the fire, that is how quickly the cannon can be aimed at the target, open fire on it and aim at another enemy. Add a link to the main article on the gun: {{main|Name of the weapon}}. Describe in general terms the ammunition available for the main gun. Give advice on how to use them and how to fill the ammunition storage.

Additional armament

Some tanks are armed with several guns in one or more turrets. Evaluate the additional weaponry and give advice on its use. Describe the ammunition available for additional weaponry. Give advice on how to use them and how to fill the ammunition storage. If there is no additional weaponry remove this subsection.

Machine guns

Offensive and anti-aircraft machine guns not only allow you to fight some aircraft but also are effective against lightly armoured vehicles. Evaluate machine guns and give recommendations on its use.

Usage in battles

Describe the tactics of playing in the vehicle, the features of using vehicles in the team and advice on tactics. Refrain from creating a "guide" - do not impose a single point of view but instead give the reader food for thought. Describe the most dangerous enemies and give recommendations on fighting them. If necessary, note the specifics of the game in different modes (AB, RB, SB).

Pros and cons

Pros:

  • High rate of fire for a 30mm cannon
  • Fast turret rotation speed
  • Very good at taking out other SPAA or lightly armoured vehicles
  • Average movement speed
  • Access to many unlockable ammo belts

Cons:

  • Although having thick armour for a SPAA, its still not enough to stop any kind of tank shell at its rank
  • Long reload time

History

The Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz ("Ball Lightning") was a German self-propelled anti-aircraft gun developed during World War II. By the end of the war, only a pilot production of five units had been completed. It is possible some of these were used in the Battle of Berlin. [1]

One Kugelblitz was also involved in the fight near the town of Spichra, Thuringia, where it was destroyed and remained buried in the Spatenberg Hill until its excavation in 1999.[2]

In-game description

A continuation of the line of German AA vehicles based on the Pz.IV tank. It was the first AA vehicle to have a fully enclosed turret.

Media

Excellent additions to the article would be video guides, screenshots from the game, and photos.

See also

Links to the articles on the War Thunder Wiki that you think will be useful for the reader, for example:

  • reference to the series of the vehicles;
  • links to approximate analogues of other nations and research trees.

External links

Paste links to sources and external resources, such as:

  • topic on the official game forum;
  • encyclopedia page on the tank;
  • other literature.


Germany anti-aircraft vehicles
Wheeled  Sd.Kfz.222
Half-track  Sd.Kfz.251/21 · Sd.Kfz. 6/2
Flakpanzer IV  Wirbelwind · Ostwind · Ostwind II · Kugelblitz · Zerstörer 45
Other Flakpanzers  Flakpanzer I · Flakpanzer 38 · Flakpanzer 341
Wiesel AWC  Wiesel 1A4 · Ozelot
Radar SPAAG  Gepard · Gepard 1A2
Missile SPAA  FlaRakPz 1 · FlaRakRad

  1. German Tanks of World War II: The Complete Illustrated history of German Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1926-1945, F. M. von Senger und Etterlin
  2. "Vor 60 Jahren: Die Kampfe um Horchen, Spichra und Creuzburg - Teil 2" (in German). Milan.de. Retrieved 2011-07-17